BvS The Batsuit Thread - - - - - - - Part 30

[regwec]

It's equally clear that nobody can please everyone, and that some people will never be pleased.

 

[TheLongestDay]

It's equally clear that nobody can please everyone, and that some people will never be pleased.

Too effin true.

 

[Lencho01]

So, Batman's suit is "supposed to invoke fear", specifically when rendered ghastly? Earlier you said that he isn't "supposed to be outright scary" on account of his physical appearance. Which is it?

Yes, if you're looking to incorporate the more Gothic and foreboding elements surrounding the character, a suit based on Jim Lee or David Finch's artwork won't do the job -- unless, of course, visual effects are used to create the type of artificial atmosphere that would allow for him to stand out more. The trick is to have it complement the suit's chiropteran characteristics, some of which MrsKent described here:

Spoiler

"Or at least as close to it as they've come so far. For me, this is batman and I can see much of this in Batfleck. The muscular physique is the least of it. In both the picture above and the official batfleck pic, there's an overall vibe of mystery, quiet strength, and perhaps even melancholy, belonging to a man that has descended partially into his chosen beast. The batfleck suit has weathered and scarred "skin," leathery and encompassing "wings" of a cape and a sculpted, flexible cowl. Together they actually look...batish and even a bit organic (refreshing after all the rubber and tactical themes of the past). A brilliant suit, IMO."

I see.

Fear, sure. I'd initially be frightened too is someone was wearing dark clothing and hanging out in the shadows as we was taking me and other criminals out. But, I would never believe he was some outworldy beast while he looks like that. Just a guy who could possibly hurt me. If I were a criminal and had a reason to be afraid. I'd even be afraid of the cops. I'd even be afraid of Superman. Outright looking at Batman, his muscles don't make him scary. A lot of people have big muscles like him and aren't scary. I could stand next to Batman, Superman, and cops and not be scared because I would have nothing to be scared about if I weren't a criminal (ideally). But, if I were up to know good and knew about their skills and whatnot, I'd have a reason to be scared. Cops are cops. The whole world knows about Superman. And active Batman should be pretty famous too.

I'm not talking about visual effects. I'm talking about the suit. No point in bringing it up. I'm talking about a dude sorta dressed up like a bat, that I find kinda ridiculous and funny given the choices they made. No matter how you choose to describe him, that's all I see when looking at this suit or any of the past live-action suits. So, more appealing than others, sure. But, in the end, a dude in a suit. Now, if they made him look like the Demon Batman in BB, I'd be saying something different. I would actual describe him as some beast or creature of the night.

 

[Lencho01]

It's equally clear that nobody can please everyone, and that some people will never be pleased.

Sure, they aren't the ones designing the suits. Doesn't mean one can't say they aren't feeling certain elements of a costume, like the depiction of the muscles.

 

[regwec]

You can say whatever you choose, but I think my observation is correct.

 

[Lencho01]

Okay, I guess I'm still unclear about what kind of Batsuit you'd like to see. From your comments, it seems that you may be more of a Nolan Bat-armor fan? But if you look at any incarnation of Batman, it's always just been a guy in a suit - it's the way they light him and pose him in the end that is precisely what attempts to make him look more than "just a man in a suit."

And the mouth opening has always been there in every version - all films, comics, TV - so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I mean I guess if Bruce transformed into a manbat, or the demonbat from BB, then I guess he'd literally be "beastly" and the mouth opening wouldn't be a problem? But that's not Batman.

As for the Flash CW suit - I can see how everyone wouldn't like it - I honestly had to warm to it at first - but in light of your stance on Batman's suit, again, I'm not clear on your definition of "overboard." You think they went overboard on Bats with the muscles, but they also went overboard with the Flash because, why? Too much texture? Not enough muscles? Not racing suit looking enough?

I just don't know if you want all live action superheros to look like art by Alex Ross, and again I bring him up because he's the only one who depicts what real people would look like with the "comic accurate" costumes. I personally am glad they leave those smooth looking suits in the comics - they work there, but I don't think they'd work well in today's live action.

Never said I was a fan of the Nolan suits.

Said I never viewed the character as a beast unless purposely depicted as such. Just a dude.

I talked of the muscles. Too much for me tastes.

Wasn't talking about the CW Flash. The first live-action one with John Wesley Shipp.

Never brought up spandex or anything like it. This is not a "one or the other" situation here like it has been amongst fans for years when it came to armored versus spandex when some said they wanted a more traditional-looking suit.

 

[Lencho01]

You can say whatever you choose, but I think my observation is correct.

Whatever.

 

[BatFan1979]

Never said I was a fan of the Nolan suits.

OK, so not a fan of the Nolan suits and you think the Batfleck suit is laughable...so I ask again, what would you want to see in your ideal suit? What would make Lencho01 say, "Wow, now that's MY batman!"?

Wasn't talking about the CW Flash. The first live-action one with John Wesley Shipp.

My mistake. Even though I think it looked pretty cool at the time, I think I agree that the muscles on that Flash suit were a bit on the extreme side. I don't see the Flash as being a big muscular bodybuilder-type guy.

Never brought up spandex or anything like it. This is not a "one or the other" situation here like it has been amongst fans for years when it came to armored versus spandex when some said they wanted a more traditional-looking suit.

That's just it though - this Batfleck suit IS a more middle ground suit IMO. I mean I guess they could have smoothed out the muscle suit a bit, but I think they were trying to show off the character's stature. Also, Snyder isn't really known for subtlety anyway.

 

[Lencho01]

OK, so not a fan of the Nolan suits and you think the Batfleck suit is laughable...so I ask again, what would you want to see in your ideal suit? What would make Lencho01 say, "Wow, now that's MY batman!"?

My mistake. Even though I think it looked pretty cool at the time, I think I agree that the muscles on that Flash suit were a bit on the extreme side. I don't see the Flash as being a big muscular bodybuilder-type guy.

That's just it though - this Batfleck suit IS a more middle ground suit IMO. I mean I guess they could have smoothed out the muscle suit a bit, but I think they were trying to show off the character's stature. Also, Snyder isn't really known for subtlety anyway.

I posted the general idea of what I'd like to see earlier in thread. But, in short, something like the YJ toon Batman with little-to-no musculature. I have seen some manips and fan art that I liked. There's a lot of old ones on these boards, but if you look at lujho's manip (which is also his avatar), something like that is closer to my tastes. Gives the perception of some protection and doesn't show much musculature, but still looks like the general classic look of Batman.

Yeah, that's all I'm saying with Snyder's take. Just too much for my tastes. I get what they're going for, but it just doesn't work for me. If they did the same thing for the rest of the JL, I'd find them funny too.

And like I said before in the previous Batsuit thread and Supersuit one, Snyder's take (Frank Miller's TDKR in the style of Jim Lee) just reminds me of a modern Schumacher one, through his eyes, of course. "Perfect" bodies with muscles and veins coming though everywhere even the boots and gloves just isn't the approach I would've taken. It certainly all looks nice for what it is though and more appealing than the previous Batsuits.

 

[BatFan1979]

I posted the general idea of what I'd like to see earlier in thread. But, in short, something like the YJ toon Batman with little-to-no musculature. I have seen some manips and fan art that I liked. There's a lot of old ones on these boards, but if you look at lujho's manip (which is also his avatar), something like that is closer to my tastes. Gives the perception of some protection and doesn't show much musculature, but still looks like the general classic look of Batman.

Maybe something like this? I'd say less texture, but I think a little would definitely fill the grey voids. I just wonder how it would translate to live action...would love to see it someday though.

 

[rockandrollsoul]

Maybe something like this? I'd say less texture, but I think a little would definitely fill the grey voids. I just wonder how it would translate to live action...would love to see it someday though.

Funnily enough, this is very close to what we got. Yeah, the musculature isn't defined, but the overall look and many design elements (the cowl, gloves, boots, belt, etc.) are spot on.

I understand Lencho01 doesn't prefer the defined musculature, but he's being a little nitpicky.

 

[Lencho01]

Maybe something like this? I'd say less texture, but I think a little would definitely fill the grey voids. I just wonder how it would translate to live action...would love to see it someday though.

Yeah, something like that. I think the Captain America and Tron: Legacy suits kinda show how it could be done. I think someone will do it someday.

Funnily enough, this is very close to what we got. Yeah, the musculature isn't defined, but the overall look and many design elements (the cowl, gloves, boots, belt, etc.) are spot on.

I understand Lencho01 doesn't prefer the defined musculature, but he's being a little nitpicky.

No, I'm not. It's no different than people saying they liked the MOS suit, but weren't feeling the piping or how the yellow looked too light/almost white. It just happens that what I dislike is all over the suit and I find it to be funny-looking.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

Maybe something like this? I'd say less texture, but I think a little would definitely fill the grey voids. I just wonder how it would translate to live action...would love to see it someday though.

Very cool.

 

[Bruce Malone]

What's your opinion of the new Daredevils suit?

Definitely Batman-esque.

 

[BatFan1979]

What's your opinion of the new Daredevils suit?

Definitely Batman-esque.

Yeah, that whole show gave me a Batman vibe for sure! Great series thus far.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Show is great, suit is great. Last scene of the last episode was amazing. That was a solid season one.

 

[BravoNolanILuvU]

I liked it way better in motion but I'm not entirely in love with it, and I kind of wish it was a little bit more red. One thing's for sure though, I can't tell that it's Charlie Cox behind the mask at all.

 

[Enriquespy]

Weird, cause in half on the posts you've made you say the exact same thing.

Lies and difamation!!!!

 

[John-An]

What's your opinion of the new Daredevils suit?

Definitely Batman-esque.

I don't like it too much. I liked it better the black one. This seemed just do it for hurry. The chest looks overdesigned. Don't like the cowl, the mouth opening, the horns, and the black details... I liked the concept art they shown few days ago way more.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Fear, sure. I'd initially be frightened too is someone was wearing dark clothing and hanging out in the shadows as we was taking me and other criminals out. But, I would never believe he was some outworldy beast while he looks like that. Just a guy who could possibly hurt me. If I were a criminal and had a reason to be afraid. I'd even be afraid of the cops. I'd even be afraid of Superman. Outright looking at Batman, his muscles don't make him scary. A lot of people have big muscles like him and aren't scary. I could stand next to Batman, Superman, and cops and not be scared because I would have nothing to be scared about if I weren't a criminal (ideally). But, if I were up to know good and knew about their skills and whatnot, I'd have a reason to be scared. Cops are cops. The whole world knows about Superman. And active Batman should be pretty famous too.

I'm not talking about visual effects. I'm talking about the suit. No point in bringing it up. I'm talking about a dude sorta dressed up like a bat, that I find kinda ridiculous and funny given the choices they made. No matter how you choose to describe him, that's all I see when looking at this suit or any of the past live-action suits. So, more appealing than others, sure. But, in the end, a dude in a suit. Now, if they made him look like the Demon Batman in BB, I'd be saying something different. I would actual describe him as some beast or creature of the night.

You're not looking at things from the perspective of superstitious criminals who reside in a fictional world much unlike our own -- you're applying real world logic to comic book characters. Of course, you don't find Batman's suit scary, just like you wouldn't be frightened of Superman were his eyes burning red. You see both for what they are, the former a harmless costume, the latter some nice visual effects. It's a fantasy, though. I understand that your problem is with the aforementioned costume, but you fail to realize that Batman relies on more than just that to inspire fear in the hearts of criminals.

Here's an excerpt from Shadow of the Bat #0: "The ninjas taught him their secrets--how to use the shadows, how to employ psychology to win the battle before it's even fought--the precautions to take when you make yourself a target--and how to use fear."

That's why I brought up visual effects in my previous post. The suit on its own isn't meant to be perceived as horrific (after all, Batman doesn't want to scare away the innocents he's trying to save). It's how he uses it in conjunction with what he's learned over the years traveling abroad. Where's your imagination?

 

[hafizbat]

That YJ-style Batsuit is sweet, this drawing of Captain America in that style is probably one of my favorite Cap drawings.

Spoiler

I like the DD suit, but it's not as good as it looks in the concept art and it just can't beat the sweet ninja outfit.

I'm loving Batfleck's look, but it wouldn't be my preferred musculature for Batman. Something like this is preferable,

More lean-and-mean than Lee/Miller/Arkham/BvS Mini-Hulk. Still, I love how big the new Batman is, it's a welcome change and the first really physically imposing Batman on screen. It's about time, as all the other big heroes have comic book bodies these days.

 

[MrsKent26]

You're not looking at things from the perspective of superstitious criminals who reside in a fictional world much unlike our own -- you're applying real world logic to comic book characters. Of course, you don't find Batman's suit scary, just like you wouldn't be frightened of Superman were his eyes burning red. You see both for what they are, the former a harmless costume, the latter some nice visual effects. It's a fantasy, though. I understand that your problem is with the aforementioned costume, but you fail to realize that Batman relies on more than just that to inspire fear in the hearts of criminals.

Here's an excerpt from Shadow of the Bat #0: "The ninjas taught him their secrets--how to use the shadows, how to employ psychology to win the battle before it's even fought--the precautions to take when you make yourself a target--and how to use fear."

That's why I brought up visual effects in my previous post. The suit on its own isn't meant to be perceived as horrific (after all, Batman doesn't want to scare away the innocents he's trying to save). It's how he uses it in conjunction with what he's learned over the years traveling abroad. Where's your imagination?

Indeed. The macabre of batman (or any like-missioned superhero) is rooted equally in what we don't see as it is in what you do see. The most effective horror movies use this idea.

The Snyder costume, IMO, removes a few of those tactical human distractions and replaces them with organic bat-like qualities. When a dim light shines in his direction, a quick and adrenaline-addled look reveals more creature qualities than man qualities (as seen in the pictures I used in earlier posts). The imagination of a frightened and guilty person adds the rest. I think when most people talk about batman being creature-like, they aren't picturing him standing in the bold sunlight wearing his suit and a broad smile.

 

[Lencho01]

You're not looking at things from the perspective of superstitious criminals who reside in a fictional world much unlike our own -- you're applying real world logic to comic book characters. Of course, you don't find Batman's suit scary, just like you wouldn't be frightened of Superman were his eyes burning red. You see both for what they are, the former a harmless costume, the latter some nice visual effects. It's a fantasy, though. I understand that your problem is with the aforementioned costume, but you fail to realize that Batman relies on more than just that to inspire fear in the hearts of criminals.

Here's an excerpt from Shadow of the Bat #0: "The ninjas taught him their secrets--how to use the shadows, how to employ psychology to win the battle before it's even fought--the precautions to take when you make yourself a target--and how to use fear."

That's why I brought up visual effects in my previous post. The suit on its own isn't meant to be perceived as horrific (after all, Batman doesn't want to scare away the innocents he's trying to save). It's how he uses it in conjunction with what he's learned over the years traveling abroad. Where's your imagination?

Unless we're dealing with a world that Batman truly is an unknown entity and no one has ever seen him, even the guys he has beaten up, I don't see how one would be all out scared by his appearance. And that usually isn't the case in most of his depictions.

Anyone could seem scary by lurking in the shadows. Even Robin coupled with a crazy laughter can strike fear into someone who doesn't know where exactly he is.

I'm not using real world logic. He straight up just doesn't look scary to me. Even when next to the rest of JL. Scarier than say someone like Flash? Sure. But, not outright scary.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Unless we're dealing with a world that Batman truly is an unknown entity and no one has ever seen him, even the guys he has beaten up, I don't see how one would be all out scared by his appearance. And that usually isn't the case in most of his depictions.

Anyone could seem scary by lurking in the shadows. Even Robin coupled with a crazy laughter can strike fear into someone who doesn't know where exactly he is.

I'm not using real world logic. He straight up just doesn't look scary to me. Even when next to the rest of JL. Scarier than say someone like Flash? Sure. But, not outright scary.

Well, first off, criminals -- specifically the ones who reside in Gotham City -- aren't quite so homogenous that they all respond to stimuli in exactly the same way. Even in real life, studies have shown that religious folks (for the sake of example) are more likely to be frightened by demonic imagery than more secular types.

Batman uses fear as a weapon; he kind of turns it on when it suits his purposes. I'm not saying he's intended to be the spookiest thing known to mankind, but it's clear that he dresses up like a bat to play upon the preexisting fears of said criminals -- especially superstitious ones. Like I suggested before, the psychological factor is an integral component.

You know how some people are scared by clowns? In the daytime, I'd imagine that the reaction many have toward them is significantly reduced. It's at night mostly -- in the dark -- when your mind plays tricks on you that you find yourself impaired. That's the part of the human psyche that Batman exploits. While the suit isn't fully monstrous in appearance, the closer it comes to that, the easier his task.

Again, I'm not saying that he's meant to be scary all the time. He uses the more mysterious elements of the costume in conjunction with the shadows and such to get the drop on his more weak-minded foes -- those lower in tier. The feeling of apprehension isn't meant to last, though. Once the psychological warfare has done its part, it's ass-kicking time!

 

[Lencho01]

Well, first off, criminals -- specifically the ones who reside in Gotham City -- aren't quite so homogenous that they all respond to stimuli in exactly the same way. Even in real life, studies have shown that religious folks (for the sake of example) are more likely to be frightened by demonic imagery than more secular types.

Batman uses fear as a weapon; he kind of turns it on when it suits his purposes. I'm not saying he's intended to be the spookiest thing known to mankind, but it's clear that he dresses up like a bat to play upon the preexisting fears of said criminals -- especially superstitious ones. Like I suggested before, the psychological factor is an integral component.

You know how some people are scared by clowns? In the daytime, I'd imagine that the reaction many have toward them is significantly reduced. It's at night mostly -- in the dark -- when your mind plays tricks on you that you find yourself impaired. That's the part of the human psyche that Batman exploits. While the suit isn't fully monstrous in appearance, the closer it comes to that, the easier his task.

Again, I'm not saying that he's meant to be scary all the time. He uses the more mysterious elements of the costume in conjunction with the shadows and such to get the drop on his more weak-minded foes -- those lower in tier. The feeling of apprehension isn't meant to last, though. Once the psychological warfare has done its part, it's ass-kicking time!

That's fine and all. But, I simple don't view the dude as scary, beastly, whatever based on his appearance in the majority of his depictions including this film.