The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 144

[BatLobster]

Nolan himself has repeatedly said that the films are not intended to have a left wing or right wing agenda. As he pointed out, the fact that he gets equally accused of being both is proof of that.

In actuality though, I saw a post on Nolanfans where somebody did some digging and found that that Syncopy made a small donation to Obama's reelection campaign. So, yeah. Another Hollywood lib!

Even if so, that doesn't change the fact that his films are not political though. Good filmmakers understand that films shouldn't be pushing a political agenda.

 

[georgec]

LOL someone asked Nolan about that last year (politics in his TDK trilogy) at the premiere, and he had this extremely confused, uninterested look on his face. I can't remember what the question specifically asked, though.

 

[milost]

Batman Begins a 'classic, like nothing you've ever seen before"? Ehhh....

I've seen batman before. I've seen incomprehensible flash cutting before. I've seen non-linear storytelling before. I've heard Hans Zimmer's ubiquitous strings before. I've never seen a successful reboot before, but I have a feeling that quote implies far more than that.

Star Wars is one of the true gems of cinema. Literally nothing will replicate it. Not TDK, not Avengers, not Avatar. Nothing.

Exactly.


Just because there's a series of three films doesn't mean they're similar to others in some way. Literally the only connection is "oh, there are three movies in a popular series", nothing else.

I'm surprised more folks haven't tried to connect it to Lord of the Rings. "Oh man, that Batman Begins is just as compelling and adventurous as that classic Fellowship's quest to Mount Doom". Should we start comparing Iron Man with Star Wars and other popular movie trilogies now? We'll be seeing the third installment in a few weeks.



I know people love to cling to the idea of "epic trilogies" so I'm sure I'm in the minority on this. When I watch a movie like Batman Begins, I'm thinking of it in Batman Begins' terms. The way it was in 2005. Those great feelings I had sitting in theaters in 2005. TDKR never existed in 2005. There wasn't a "Bane" or a "Talia", not even Harvey Dent. I don't see why people are so obsessed to mash it all together as one story, trying to make it comparable to biblical proportions, especially with all of it's inconsistencies. Same goes for Spider-Man, or Godfather, or any other film that happens to have at least three movies, good or not. I view each film on it's own with it's own merits on it's own terms, except the third film which usually obnoxiously tries to tie everything together by "taking it back". From the Dark Knight Rises to Scream 3 to Hangover 3.


The only exception to this is Lord of the Rings, but those were filmed back to back at the same time, released a year apart.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I've said this many time but in a good film people will be able to see what they want to see. That goes with reference to people who view nolan's bat films as right wing or left wing or nihilist or socialist or what have you.

 

[BatLobster]

It's always been a great "regret" of mine that I wasn't alive for the original Star Wars Trilogy. For me, The Dark Knight Trilogy was the closest thing I can imagine to an emotional equivalent. In terms of how much I was attached to it, and how much people around me seemed to be attached to it, the enormous effect it had on pop culture, etc.

Obviously the comparison is nowhere near exact. Episode IV was an instant pop culture phenomenon, Begins was a slow burn success. Star Wars will always be one of the most influential films ever made, and Star Wars in general is just influential on a level far beyond what any film can be these days.

That said, I don't mind viewing it as a trilogy one bit, it enhances the experience for me. It's the story of one man after all. There was no "Yoda" when they made Episode IV. Luke and Leia weren't originally supposed to be siblings, etc. Just because they weren't all conceived at once doesn't mean it's not a trilogy. The general narrative arc is organic and classic storytelling. It's true of both Star Wars and TDK Trilogy.

And milost, you have to realize that just like I saw all three Star Wars movies around the same time on video as a child, there will be a generation of people who grow up with all three of these movies available. It will be a trilogy to them. They won't be able to separate them into "2005", "2008" and "2012" like you or I can.

 

[milost]

And milost, you have to realize that just like I saw all three Star Wars movies around the same time on video as a child, there will be a generation of people who grow up with all three of these movies available. It will be a trilogy to them. They won't be able to separate them into "2005", "2008" and "2012" like you or I can.

True, true. I can't argue with that.

But for the time being though? It hasn't happened yet. TDKR isn't even a year old. It's going to take a couple more home video box sets and "anniversary editions" for that to happen. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Nolan Batman films will ever be forgotten (especially with The Dark Knight in the foreground), but the whole comparison with Star Wars is just, I don't know, seems like forced fan hyping to me, "THIS IS SOOOOOOOO TRANSCENDING!"


Batman will be around forever, outliving all the films and comics and entertainment about it (good and bad) It's staying power was evident even before the marketing of "the legend ends". 20 years later and the Burton flicks haven't died, or the animated series, or the TV show. So it's a moot point.


That's what's obnoxious about relating it to "Star Wars levels" I don't think so. That magic that happened in 1979 and the early 80s hasn't been repeated in any series. Not even the prequels made by the same creator managed to do it.




Everything is it's own thing. The early Star Wars films, the modern Star Wars films. James Cameron's Terminator, Tim Burtons's Batman. Sam Raimi's Spider-man, Christopher Nolan's Batman, Marvel mvoies, Avengers etc. etc.

 

[BatLobster]

I can agree with that. Everything is its own thing, and Batman was around before this trilogy, and will be around after.

But I do maintain that, personally speaking, emotionally it's up there for me in terms of how I regard it. When I walked out of TDK, I couldn't help but think "This is probably as close as I can get to what it felt like to walk out of a midnight showing of The Empire Strikes Back". Now, was that a forced comparison? Well, heck Nolan himself mentioned Empire as one of the films they looked at for inspiration. To some degree it is a forced comparison though, but it's only born out of a desire to find your generation's "equivalent" to something classic. And TDK seemed to do it on its own terms and make its own mark. It was also after I saw TDK that I knew for sure that we were dealing with a Trilogy capital T, because of the narrative structure of everything going to hell for the hero. Naturally we would have to see the redemption story to finish it off.

If I ever have kids, that's going to be a movie where I can say, "Yep, I remember seeing The Dark Knight at a midnight screening on IMAX" and share stories about the whole experience of the trilogy in general. I didn't get to live the magic of the late 70s and early 80s, but for me '05-'12 was a very special time.

 

[milost]

What director hasn't been inspired or in awe over Star Wars though? It was huge. Not just for directors either, but everyone really. Hell, now we have everything from crappy movies to Star Wars angry birds.


And as much as The Dark Knight wowed me, especially with the Joker, nothing compares to the Empire Strike Back with Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker and "I am your father". Nothing. This was before message boards, before the internet, etc.

But I get what you're saying, for you that's as close as you'll get, but even you admit a "desire to find your generation's "equivalent". Who cares about that really? Just enjoy it for what it IS. That doesn't take away from The Dark Knight in the slightest, it's just a different feeling is all. That's lighting for you, it very rarely strikes twice. It's not just Star Wars either, the late 70s and the 80s were a special time that can never be repeated as much as Hollywood tries (Star Wars, Superman, Alien, Terminator, Robocop, Die Hard, Indiana Jones, Batman, E.T., Back to the Future, etc. etc.). Modern movies also have their own thing that a few decades from now people will be saying, "oh, that was good stuff".

 

[BatLobster]

Well yeah I do fully admit that it's forcing a square peg in a round hole, but I make the comparison in the loosest way possible. The whole thing is for me, by the time I saw ESB "I am your father" was already a pop culture staple and it was in no way shocking to me.

TDK had that "shocking" effect, in terms of the places it went and how dark it got. So that's why I couldn't help but feel a "this must have been what it felt like" parallel. And also, just things like seeing the prologue on an IMAX screen 6 months in advance added to the effect of it being a larger than life event. I got a heightened sense that I was living through "movie history" if you will, and that was part of the thrill I guess.

Ultimately, I think you're right though. There's no need for comparison and it should be enjoyed for what it is. And it's actually funny when you think about it being compared to Star Wars, because Star Wars/Lucas represents the very genesis of digital filmmaking (in ALL aspects, from visual effects, to editing and now shooting), and TDKT/Nolan represent an attempt from a modern filmmaker to bring things back a bit closer to the way they were done in the 70s.

 

[milost]

Yup, completely agree.

 

[JackWhite]

My two favorite Trilogies!

I agree with that for the most part, although I feel that while TDKR is the most problematic of the three; it's still a much better film/finale than ROTJ. I don't hate ROTJ, but whenever I watch ANH and then ESB, I never finish with ROTJ. After watching BB and TDK, I have to finish with TDKR.

 

[JackWhite]

Which knee has the brace

[YT]n13_EeBx69g[/YT]

Take notice of which leg Batman uses

[YT]DImh0ac-jdQ[/YT]

Booooo! I guess I never looked close enough and just assumed it was with the bum leg. Oh well, thanks for clearing that up Anno.

 

[georgec]

I don't hate ROTJ, but whenever I watch ANH and then ESB, I never finish with ROTJ.

I can't imagine not watching ROTJ to finish the trilogy. You're leaving Han permanently in carbonite!

 

[JackWhite]

I can't imagine not watching ROTJ to finish the trilogy. You're leaving Han permanently in carbonite!

lmao. I never really thought about it like that actually.

 

[milost]

Jabba's Palace and Han Solo's rescue is fine, the whole revelation in Yoda's hut and Endor with the Ewoks is when it starts falling apart for me.


The only redeeming thing about it in the last half is any scene with the Emperor, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Those parts are brilliant.

 

[JackWhite]

Jabba's Palace and Han Solo's rescue is fine, the whole revelation in Yoda's hut and Endor with the Ewoks is when it starts falling apart for me.


The only redeeming thing about it in the last half is any scene with the Emperor, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Those parts are brilliant.

I agree. I really love how mature Luke is in ROTJ. The growth between ESB and ROTJ is very well done. Hamill does a superb job with conveying that growth within Luke.

 

[BatLobster]

The Emperor, Vader, Luke sequence is probably my favorite part of the whole saga (thus far, heh). It definitely brings up the whole movie in a big way for me because I know it's building somewhere epic and climactic.

The movie overall definitely could've been better, but it has a warm place in my heart. It's still weird for me to think that it will no longer be the ending of the Star Wars film saga.

 

[Victarion]

I can't imagine not watching ROTJ to finish the trilogy. You're leaving Han permanently in carbonite!

I could take bits and toss out the rest; mostly the space battle and Luke vs Vader. I have my own version of ROTJ that I prefer; just like my own version of LOTR. If you look at ROTJ and TDKR as their respective conclusions, I prefer TDKR as a conclusion to the DK story than ROTJ for the SW story.

Comparing this trilogy to Star Wars...for me is in the similarities between the Galactic Empire and the League of Shadows and the practical effects used when CGI could have sufficed.

 

[Brother Jack]

Spoiler

That is not an apt comparison. Return of the Jedi is largely considered to be the least in the OT but Rises is generally looked at as better than Begins and some people even rate it higher than Knight (despite what some circles might suggest).

 

[Anno_Domini]

Man, posting that created so many different topics on here already

 

[Art Damage]

Eh. I don't know about that. I just recently re watched The Dark Knight and it leaves me with a better feeling overall than The Dark Knight Rises did...there's just too much plot hole wise and moments that I cannot stand about TDKR that refrain me from saying it's a great movie. Which is sad considering The Dark Knight is my favorite movie of all time.

TDKR feels too epic for it's own good and while TDK feels epic, it feels extremely contained as well. There are moments I can't stand in TDKR and it drags the film down for me. The film has too much of a summer blockbuster feel while TDK has those moments...it feels much more like a grounded crime thriller....only instead we're dealing with a guy in a bat suit and a deranged clown.

I think almost a year into it, I can safely say TDKR was a huge letdown for me....and again, it's a real shame considering how much I loved those first two movies. I'll still buy the deluxe ultra 'oh my god' edition that comes out this year because of how much Begins and TDK affected me...but I won't be re watching TDKR over and over again anytime soon.

 

[Infinity9999x]

That is not an apt comparison. Return of the Jedi is largely considered to be the least in the OT but Rises is generally looked at as better than Begins and some people even rate it higher than Knight (despite what some circles might suggest).

In terms of the fan community, yes.

In terms of reviewers/general public? Not really. It's still not an apt comparison because the general public is still largely unaware of Batman Begins. I've had friends in the past year tell me they finally got around to watching it. But the ESB/ROTJ with TDK and TDKR is applicable. That's the general consensus between reviewers most definitely, and the general public. TDKR was very good, just not quite as good as TDK. Which isn't anything to sneeze at, since TDK is a great film with one of the charismatic performances people have seen in years.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I gotta say....I love Return of the Jedi and never got all the hate it gets, lol. Sure, it has some bumps along the road, but it's a satisfying film. Better than any of the prequel crap.

 

[georgec]

I gotta say....I love Return of the Jedi and never got all the hate it gets, lol. Sure, it has some bumps along the road, but it's a satisfying film. Better than any of the prequel crap.

ROTJ was my favorite growing up. No coincidence that TDKR is my favorite of the Nolan trilogy as well.

I love the grand, epic, emotional conclusions of each trilogy. The sheer visceral power is overwhelming and utterly unforgettable to me.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I think people just hate short, hairy fellas